Curse

Karate Jesus · Nov 09, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErrantVenture

VoR, Necro hexes, and sins are the biggest gimmicks/problems in GvG right now. They're getting targeted and brought down. That's been pretty much confirmed by almost every player I've talked to on the TK (6-7 of them). Same people are telling me that dervishes aren't getting talked about at all anymore, if any changes are gonna happen it's not gonna be until after Christmas if they happen at all.

Listen to this man and Lemming.

It looks like the dev team is targeting gimmicks in GvG. Sin chains are getting hurt. Other skills are being changed to correct their OPness.

I'm happy that they're finally addressing the hexway garbage and thank God my guild is training balanced. And heal party getting the axe is nice, considering that is just annoying to split against.

I am a little disappointed about the lack of a dervish update and I wonder what they spent the last few months doing if they weren't testing dervish skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyta

This might be a really stupid question, but where did the rumor that there's an update coming this Thursday come from? Does the rumor have a basis?

Yes. I'll leave it at that.

jazilla · Nov 09, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I'd like to ask the TK to "show stones" and do what should have been done a long time ago and add a 15 second cool down to SF. At least with AP you are fighting everything on your way to your goal. With SF you do as little as possible to farm end chests.

Karate Jesus · Nov 09, 2010, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I'd like to ask the TK to "show stones" and do what should have been done a long time ago and add a 15 second cool down to SF. At least with AP you are fighting everything on your way to your goal. With SF you do as little as possible to farm end chests.

I don't think any SF changes are rumored. At least, I haven't heard any.

And the AP nerf may have been just rumor. I looked into it more, and it looks like that's not happening (again, I could be wrong).

This skill update seems to be targeted at PvP. I think their only plans for PvE are the upcoming content additions.

jazilla · Nov 09, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I don't think any SF changes are rumored. At least, I haven't heard any.

And the AP nerf may have been just rumor. I looked into it more, and it looks like that's not happening (again, I could be wrong).

This skill update seems to be targeted at PvP. I think their only plans for PvE are the upcoming content additions.

that makes sense then. AP getting hit and not SF seemed really weird to me. We will see what happens, but the whole reason(what seems to me as an excuse)Stumme gave as to why they weren't doing a Derv update with the CB and all seems really fishy. I hope that Dervs are going to get some love, but we will see if your Fortune Cookies are correct KJ

.

WarcryOfTruth · Nov 09, 2010, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Even if you kill SF entirely, there will be a replacement. While I was toying around the other day, it turns out you can negate pretty much all damage with a dedicated bonder using 3 skills. In HM DoA. Yes, I had 10 damage reduction from SF and Shroud but that was pre-bonds, so it doesn't make a lot of difference. Heck, even a Vow of Silence Derv with proper bonds could replace an SF sin for many purposes.

Speed clears are part of the game now. Unless there is a change to the objectives of areas, not the skills used in them or the foes' skills or AI, speed clears will just evolve around updates. There's no point hurting any more skills unless you're just out to get them.

I still don't really understand why AP is on the chopping block though

. Discord is easy, but it's not broken and it's not the most efficient way of playing. At this point I run Discord still as a base for team setups (MM bomber and N/Rt Resto are very sound), if Discord itself were nerfed I'd just throw AotL or Jagged on the MM and Xinrae's/WoR/Icy Veins on the Resto. Given the kinds of hell the rest of my team can unleash, it hardly makes a difference. And I never role AP anymore, it's way more fun (and usually more effective) to run a physical bar, for damage, control, and party support.

I'd rather see a nerf to the incredible PvE only skills from GW:EN than an AP nerf. I've said it before: in what context is a 10e, 10s, instant cast KD, cripple, and armor ignoring damage not broken?

This will require a Bonder, which will take two party spots to replace the one that a Shadow Former can do on its own. I also think that if they nerf the skills needing nerfs, and buff NOTHING else, in terms of spell prevention, there will be no replacement. Otherwise, why have those skills not seen life already? If they make all spell prevention skills unmaintainable, except for Vow, the closest thing would be Mist Form, and I don't see anyone using that as a tank for elite areas.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I'd like to ask the TK to "show stones" and do what should have been done a long time ago and add a 15 second cool down to SF. At least with AP you are fighting everything on your way to your goal. With SF you do as little as possible to farm end chests.

There is a simple solution to stop the farming of end chests, at least as quickly as they do it, without changing any skills or any monster AI. One simple change, if you are curious about it, PM me and I can give you my idea, but I will not post it here because it will cause an all out flame war vs. me.

Karate Jesus · Nov 09, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

that makes sense then. AP getting hit and not SF seemed really weird to me. We will see what happens, but the whole reason(what seems to me as an excuse)Stumme gave as to why they weren't doing a Derv update with the CB and all seems really fishy.

I agree with that. I'm starting to think that Stumme didn't realize what he was getting into before saying that he'd update dervs (not counting all the other stuff he said they'd do). Either that, or their timetable is a lot broader than we thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

I hope that Dervs are going to get some love, but we will see if your Fortune Cookies are correct KJ

.

You're right. We'll see

Zodiac Meteor · Nov 09, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

We should split this thread into PvE and PvP changes.

Quote:

Why ER eles Havnt been touched is beyond me. Maybe because the only other thing Elsa have to run is Bsurge or something (if that's still viable?). ER itself is detrimental to how viable monks are, and how teams are ran in PvE.

It's been established, PuGs are generally stupid.
That's why some UWSC PuGs require to show summon stones, their avoiding stupid people while being stupid themselves.

Esurge, I absolutely hate running on my low energy set 99% of the time. Not that it's hard to do, just adds annoyance to gameplay.

Also... screw codex arena and just bring Costume Brawl back with daily changing skills. It's an area of PvP that WON'T need constant balance.

Lastly, buff Shadow Stepping, lower recharge and lower after cast. Why not make shadow arts affect recharge of shadowsteps deadly arts affect after cast?

Hmmm, anyone remember 6vs6 HA testing? I really want that back.

Ghull Ka · Nov 09, 2010, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Why is Assassin's Promise so important for Discord builds?

Any */N character with Parasitic Bond, Enfeeble and Necrosis can call and spike for a Discord team. Maybe not "just as well as" an */A character with Assassin's Promise and "Finish Him" -- perhaps the overall damage of the spike would be less. But the job would be done, the skills will recharge fast enough to use on the next target, and much merriment would ensue.

Discord builds will live on even if Assassin's Promise is removed/nerfed/killed/hospitalized.

Nerfing Assassin's Promise won't nerf Discord builds... it will just nerf Assassin's Promise.

shady tradesman · Nov 09, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Nerf discord.

Nerf sand shards.

Xenomortis · Nov 09, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghull Ka

Why is Assassin's Promise so important for Discord builds?

One of the strengths in the standard Discord setup lies in the player bar. YMLAD and FD are very powerful spike skills and with EVAS, this bar easily accounts for at least a third of the spike damage.

WarcryOfTruth · Nov 09, 2010, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by shady tradesman

Nerf discord.

Discord doesn't need a nerf. At 16 Death Magic it deals 115 damage. With a 2 second recharge and one second cast, that is 115 damage every 3 seconds. 115 damage divided by 3 comes out to 38.333..... Damage per second. With 3 Discords, that comes out to 115 damage per second, which is still not anything fantastic for 3 heroes to deal.

R_Frost · Nov 09, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I agree with that. I'm starting to think that Stumme didn't realize what he was getting into before saying that he'd update dervs (not counting all the other stuff he said they'd do). Either that, or their timetable is a lot broader than we thought.

or another thought is, seeing the dervish has no place in GW2 why waste the time on them anymore and just use what little resources availible and continue the bridging of GW1 to GW2.

Lanier · Nov 09, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Give me any dervish build in PvE that isn't absolutely worthless, and I will give you a build for another profession that does it better. At least Elementalists get ER.

Also, Rangers have it just as hard as Elementalists.

I think the point he was trying to make is that Dervs are still good at what they do even if scythe-sins outclass them. Dervs can still pump out a lot of damage. Still, it would be easy enough for anet to fix both of these with a simple change. Fix eles by adjusting the HM properties of creatures so that rather than having increased armor, they have even more health. Fix dervs (at least scythe dps dervs) by making strength and crit strikes only apply to warrior attack skills and daggers respectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

This goes for the rest of this thread: don't post if you don't know what's going on.

Oh? So we can't post what changes we do and don't want in PvE? This thread has to only be about PvP changes, huh? If we dont play PvP, we shouldn't bother posting here? Please excuse me if I choose not to follow this advice.

Plus, the OP and the posts prior to my first post in this thread mentioned nowhere that the HP + VoR "nerfs" were for PvP only.

FengShuiDove · Nov 09, 2010, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

One of the strengths in the standard Discord setup lies in the player bar.

But an equally important strength lies in the sheer amount of defense and support the build offers. This is because damage is dealt with a handful of skills and the rest can be thrown into support lines like Prot and Resto.

Thing is, a Panic Mesmer, a PI Mesmer, an ER Ele, a UA Monk, a Removal Monk, an SoS Rit, and the list goes on, can all provide both sufficient offense and party support. For coordinated hero teams, you don't need a dedicated healer and dedicated damage. You need to run smart hybrids. It basically turns your team into 7 offense and 7 defense instead of 2 heals, a support or two, and damage.

There are too many good hybrid combinations to have any reason to take down one. Discord did it first, but it doesn't really do it best anymore.

drkn · Nov 09, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

I am aware that we're talking about rumors, predictions and leaks. But basing on that...

Disappointed by lack of dervish/para love. Fixing scythe and buffing Mysticism a little bit ain't THAT hard and time-consuming (tying more things to Mysticism would do enough good) and it would help the dervish community a lot. Just to repeat what i told a lot times earlier regarding skill updates: people don't expect updating 20 skills + changing an attribute + changing a weapon at once; it would be MUCH better to see 3-4 skills updated, but more frequent. That way the nerfs/buffs might be more flexible, with faster responses to the new gimmicks/crap due to overpowered/underpowered versions.

Disappointed by not hammering down Shadow Form to the ground. It got nerfed but obviously works good enough to be invincible tank in PvE, what is a tad too much. Sins still can run most dungeons, big chunk of them can be done completely solo in just a few minutes; UW can still be SCed.
SF should have never existed in GW in its form. The general idea behind the skill is cool, but it just breaks the game's mechanics.

The AP nerf might be targeted as well to kill N/A MoP spammers, not only Discordway. Even though i'm a Discordway-user for a long time now, i totally agree that AP should be nerfed. Not smitersbooned, not incinerated as SF should be, but definately made less powerful.

Talking about MoP spammers, the Manlyway - and MoP + 100b/Whirlwind in general - is stupidly overpowered meta in the current PvE. Providing the example of the current meta Raptor farm is enough in my opinion - ele, mes, sin, monk can't farm them effectively, whilst W/N and N/W with 100b + MoP can still get the top times.
It's of course only top of the iceberg. Manlyway, in general, is a problem, even without a dedicated N/A AP MoPer, with necro hero throwing in MoP instead. There's a thread in High-End PvE section where one guy cleared HM Deep with only three heroes - and kudos to him, congrats and the stuff, but it CLEARLY shows how a warrior on 100b, backed with MoP, is overpowered.

Speaking of meta OP builds, i hope DwG gets nerfed as well. It's cheap, has pretty much no recharge and deals insane AoE damage in team builds. Adding exhaustion to it should do the trick just fine.

ER ele infuser/bonder should have been nailed down a long time ago as well, back when SF got nerfed or even earlier. Despite it's sheer defensive/healing power, it's plainly ridiculous that an elementalist can easily outheal a dedicated monk and ritualist in their main party role.

While nerfing healing eles, they certainly need some sort of buff for high-end PvE. They can only run wards, snares and, to some extent, air magic now, which isn't really viable and is obviously subpar to most other classes in HM. It would be nice to see eles brought back to their main role from the very beginnings - nuking, aka dealing damage, rather than excel at healing and tanking.

When it comes to sins in PvP, Coward! should get tied to Strength a little bit and/or made half-range shout, for the very least. I don't play GvG, but i feel it's one of their biggest gimmick right now.

Speaking of PvP nerfs, i seriously hope that the TK takes not only GvG, but also other formats into consideration when updating skills. While i can agree, to some extent, that GvG should be the main focus, even RA and AB should be taken into account when nerfing/buffing certain classes and combos, so that the other arena isn't broken just because GvG needed to get rid of two popular gimmicks.

Focusing on mesmers in PvP, i don't really see why VoR itself should be nerfed. I agree that hexstacks are bad and overpowered, but it's not VoR's individual problem. Mind Wrack is much more of a concern here, as well as hex-spamming necro.

I certainly hope that most of GvG-focused changes will have PvE/PvP splits (besides, as mentioned above, taking other arenas into consideration). Remember that if something gets nerfed in PvE, the monsters are getting nerfed as well, so that nerfing PvE skills doesn't always mean increasing the game's general difficulty.
Some PvE-only skills might get a hit or two, though - longer recharge for YMLAD & higher cost and cast time for PI would be a good start.

instanceskiller · Nov 09, 2010, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I am incredibly disappointed if this is the case and the derv update is being shelved. All I can do is hope that this rumor is just a rumor and nothing more. However, I'm hearing things from others that make me think I will be disappointed.

Trader of Secrets · Nov 09, 2010, 08:03 PM // 20:03

Anything said in this thread is just desires for nerfs and buffs, nothing more.

Del · Nov 09, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Oh? So we can't post what changes we do and don't want in PvE? This thread has to only be about PvP changes, huh? If we dont play PvP, we shouldn't bother posting here? Please excuse me if I choose not to follow this advice.

he meant not to comment on things you don't know shit about. It looks really stupid, and it's probably best for you follow that advice.

Ayuhmii Shanbwa · Nov 09, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

my opinion?
most people i team up with use AP, but i dont, so couldnt care less whether it gets nerfed or not
i just hope discord can stay good, you know, as usable enough

also, for pvp i dont care actually, but if they do, let em split skills again, they've done it before, so they can do it

i just hope they wont overdo it

and i saw these are rumors, so i rather wait some

Reformed · Nov 09, 2010, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I think the point he was trying to make is that Dervs are still good at what they do even if scythe-sins outclass them. Dervs can still pump out a lot of damage. Still, it would be easy enough for anet to fix both of these with a simple change. Fix eles by adjusting the HM properties of creatures so that rather than having increased armor, they have even more health. Fix dervs (at least scythe dps dervs) by making strength and crit strikes only apply to warrior attack skills and daggers respectively.

Yes and no...

The response to the armor buffs was to rely more heavily on skills that completely ignore armor to 'nuke' with and damage multipliers for melee DPS. Professions that can't make good use of either of those things got left in the dust. Dervishes are not one of those professions.

Warriors really aren't that much better with the scythe than Dervishes are and Sins are better at all weapons because of their primary. A Sin could beat a War in raw DPS with an axe too but nobody complains because of the Sin's squishiness vs. Warrior's general flexibility. Neutering secondary weapon mastery isn't going to fix anything but it will limit build diversity.